Comments on My Teen Mania Experience: More Hypocrisy from Teen Mania

Lol, since most of the artists play at TM events I...

2012-02-10T14:05:21.732-06:00

Lol, since most of the artists play at TM events I don't really imagine they are having issues with the use of their music, just a few more pennies

Agreed, RA. Given how lax TM's standards for ...

2012-02-06T22:11:14.025-06:00

Agreed, RA. Given how lax TM's standards for record-keeping have proven to be, and how often there is an attempt to avoid accountability, I wonder how much "a lot of red tape" in TM-speak equals to actual best-practice standards.
Forever, Char... not to doubt your word, but it would be good to have the specifics.

The ESOAL video made in 2002 is riddled with copyr...

2012-02-06T19:44:04.945-06:00

The ESOAL video made in 2002 is riddled with copyrighted music and was sold by the HA to participants to make a PROFIT. In ten years - since they have probably never been financially punished for any of their wrong doings - it is probably still going on. I know the 2002 video had no clearances since I worked in the department that made the video at the time. The music was chosen by the filmmaker and it was approved by the HA when it was made to a final master and checks were collected to pay for copies.

Forever, Char - I actually think it would be very ...

2012-02-06T18:09:09.608-06:00

Forever, Char - I actually think it would be very helpful if you could explain to us all the paperwork and red tape CMM goes through - and on exactly what videos - so that we can see if they are truly following copyright law. If they are, then I will say so.

Seriously you guys? I could sit here and waste a w...

2012-02-06T17:48:52.654-06:00

Seriously you guys? I could sit here and waste a whole half an hour or more explaining in DETAIL the ways we cover our own backsides, but that would be a bit pointless. Most of the comments I read leave me wondering if saying anything counter to your own arguments would be productive in any way, or even reasonably heard. I can say this much, with the amount of paperwork we deal with at CCM, they red tape we have to maneuver through, and all the double checking with the Board, I can honestly say, at least for the last three years, we've been doing what is right and legal. We respect the artists, and their rights, so please, just back off.

I say this seems like a vendetta of sorts because of all the nitpicking being done. I mean really, the article is attacking TM's supposed hypocrisy, then is modified to add a comment that was taken out of context, for the sole purpose of making TM look bad. I'm sorry, but that SCREAMS anger, bitterness, and vengeance.

On a last note, TruthInLove, TM is almost constantly under a microscope, whether it's this site, or NBC, or parents, whoever. So even if they didn't tell us, or tried hiding a lawsuit, it would be nearly impossible to do so. People would be all over that like white on rice, and it would probably become a huge media circus.

Here you go, Shiloh - information on 501.3c non-pr...

2012-02-05T00:27:15.066-06:00

Here you go, Shiloh - information on 501.3c non-profit organization....http://goo.gl/kpoBq - "Some of the most common examples of not-for-profit companies are ones with "charitable, religious, education, or scientific purposes."

Shiloh, Teen Mania is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organ...

2012-02-04T08:43:57.672-06:00

Shiloh, Teen Mania is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization.

Is Teen Mania actually a non- profit? They don'...

2012-02-03T21:09:11.827-06:00

Is Teen Mania actually a non- profit? They don't give their money to any cause do they? It's more of a business right? How did they even get that status? Could someone tell me?

Agreed, layne. Canadian Texan, it sounds like yo...

2012-02-03T09:40:18.869-06:00

Agreed, layne.

Canadian Texan, it sounds like you don't know TM. There is basically no limit to the amount of responsibility given to in interns. Except, of course, responsibility for making good personal decisions about minutiae like when to have a "quiet time". That part is micro-managed.

"...but why wouldn't a Manager or Supervi...

2012-02-03T09:12:01.538-06:00

"...but why wouldn't a Manager or Supervisor be in charge of bigger things? They don't usually give 1st year interns jobs of that magnitude... "

Uh, yes they do.

FYI, I believe what Forever Char is referring to i...

2012-02-02T23:04:18.519-06:00

FYI, I believe what Forever Char is referring to is music used under a Creative Commons license, which, for non-profit use, is often available for use in return for crediting the artists.

That doesnt clear up every instance of copyright stuff, no, and I don't think she quite understands the overall rules regarding use of copyrighted material, but I believe that's what she was saying, as that would make more sense. Just to help understand her better.

As a first year intern, I was given the responsibi...

2012-02-02T18:01:08.445-06:00

As a first year intern, I was given the responsibility of running an entire ATF Music audition festival. I was expected to find talent, book the talent, set up lodging for these people, and plan the two day itinerary.

This was when the music label had just started out. They expected me to bring them new bands so they would sign with ATF Music.

The festival was not successful. Bands were not tearing down the door to audition and I was not given adequate resources to execute such an event. I'm sure this is the main reason they took me out of my Admin Assistant position and put me in marketing as the writer.

In the marketing team, legality was not a topic. I also wrote online devotionals and again, was never taught an aspect of copyright law.

None of us on this site are out to slander anyone. But it's pretty crappy that when we tell the truth other people get on and call us liars or whiners, etc. That is not how Christ would have you treat His abused children.

I know with certainty that multiple TM videos have...

2012-02-02T15:24:54.981-06:00

I know with certainty that multiple TM videos have not licensed music properly. How do I know? The creators of the videos in question told me so.

Of course, I don't know about EVERY video - which is why I made note in my post above that TM could feel free to prove me wrong.

Given my discussions with former CCM interns and Forever, Char's response - I don't feel confident that TM is teaching correct copyright/licensing practices to its interns. Which is doubly hypocritical when they condemn piracy ON THEIR OWN WEBSITE.

When I worked for Ron Luce, there was a big kerfuffle because one of the songs in the guitar music book sold at ATFs had not been licensed. If I hadn't worked in the Executive Office, I wouldn't have known about it. How many other similar incidents are there?

TruthinLove "So then tell me this: why, in al...

2012-02-02T15:21:30.094-06:00

TruthinLove "So then tell me this: why, in all the years of making videos and putting on live events, have we never run into an issue about copyrights or usage??"
-They haven't got caught yet.

Are you serious? They haven't got caught yet? It's a national conference with tons of publicity, I think someone has heard them use music by now. If bands aren't saying anything they obviously don't have a problem with it. Do you think if a band didn't want to be associated with something they would continue allowing their music to help promote something they didn't agree with? I seriously doubt it. Even if as you say "The Christian music industry is in such a sad state that they probably consider it promotion from the amount of exposure gotten and weigh the pros and cons before pursuing action"

Also RA how do you know 100% that they don't get appropriate permission. Sure as an intern Forever, Char's job was to take care of things regarding this but why wouldn't a Manager or Supervisor be in charge of bigger things? They don't usually give 1st year interns jobs of that magnitude...

Just wondering.

Hanna, I'm troubled by your account of 2 email...

2012-02-01T11:46:35.556-06:00

Hanna, I'm troubled by your account of 2 emails causing you to believe God is affirming something you are praying about. Sometimes God does speak to us through things like this, but the majority of the time, He expects us to use our brain to make Godly decisions. Here are some things to consider when making Godly decisions: 1. pray for God to guide you 2. consult what the Bible says 3. ask yourself if this decision will make you more or less Christlike 4. do your research and be sure you are making a fully informed decision 5. consider how this decision lines up with your future goals 6. consult with your parents, pastor, and others who know you well to hear their guidance, direction, and concerns 7. pray for discernment as you sort through your research and the advice you receive.

Discerning God's will is not like rolling a die and whatever number comes up is what God wants. Sometimes, God does use things like a timely email to help us focus on what He wants us to do. But other times, that is merely a coincidence and if we don't run our decisions through a filter of Godly decision making, we don't make good choices. Instead of looking for a supernatural sign from God, it is better to seek after wisdom. You are at a time in your life when you are trying to make a decision about what to do after school and Teen Mania knows this. So does the military and every college in your area. They will ALL be soliciting you. That does not mean it's God's will for you to any of those things! It can seem very overwhelming to make these kind of decisions, and I pray God will guide you and give you wisdom as you begin to make plans for your future!

Hi, Cameron. I can understand how you misread the ...

2012-02-01T11:44:45.367-06:00

Hi, Cameron. I can understand how you misread the intent of the original post. I've done the same thing myself when I've read something about an issue that I really care about, or is about a friend or family member. I read it quickly, don't take context into consideration, and sometimes comment before I really think about it.

Here is the thing: to many readers of this blog, your dad has been a hugely influential figure in their lives. They lived and died by his teachings on things like what a Godly life looks like and how to change the world. For a lot of us, one of the MAJOR elements of your dad's teaching was related to the fact that we were supposed to avoid secular music. That may not be as emphasized NOW as it was in the past, but many of us grew up with your dad's instruction that to listen to secular music or watch "bad" movies or we were welcoming the devil into our lives, giving him a foothold, being a bad witness, etc.

So when some of us see a video like the one RA posted--which is pretty harmless on its own--it is jolting. Even if we have long since moved past the idea that secular music is evil, we remember what it was like to think your dad had it all figured out, and if we followed his leadership, we would be good Christians. We don't want to attack your dad, but there is definitely a feeling that what we're seeing (you singing along with Maroon 5 and your dad clearly not caring) is hypocritical, or at least a little ironic.

I don't think that RA was rebuking you in any way, and I'm sorry if you got that idea. She was simply pointing out another inconsistency in a very long line of inconsistencies.

@Cameron Luce - I'm sure you're a sweet bo...

2012-02-01T10:04:51.393-06:00

@Cameron Luce - I'm sure you're a sweet boy, but show a little respect. It was our blood, sweat and tears that gave you the many opportunities you've been blessed with, including (but not limited to) globe-trotting with your dad. Yes, we paid for that. What were we doing while you were running around the world, having a blast and adding all the little good-deads to your resume? We were working 60-plus hours for your dad's ministry, digging through couches for laundry money, begging rides to the greyhound station so we could get home for a week and see our families, building triple-decker bunkbeds in 100+ degree Texas heat, calling everyone we'd ever met to ask for donations (which went into your dad's minstry, btw), praying day and night for your family, yes, and specifically for you. So...show some respect. You stand on a legacy we built.

Hanna: You write: "I prayed last night again ...

2012-02-01T09:48:52.419-06:00

Hanna: You write: "I prayed last night again about where to go to college and BAM! Someone sent me a link to this website. I am still praying on how to know the truth but right now I honestly think this is satan. He wants to hold me back from a great experience."

What if it is God wanting to hold you back from a bad experience? I think you need to consider that possibility, which fits the data just as well.

Going to Teen Mania is not a requirement for letting God use you in the ways He wants to-- frankly, it's a warning sign right there that you seem to think so. Maybe one of the ways God wants to use people is to tell the truth about the deceptive and abusive practices that go on in His name.

If you're praying about where to go to college, might I recommend my alma mater, Moody Bible Institute? It costs the same or less than HA I believe, and you get an actual accredited college degree as well as ministry experience.

Forever, Char: Thirty seconds on Google and you mi...

2012-02-01T09:31:34.695-06:00

Forever, Char: Thirty seconds on Google and you might have found this information:

"Non-profits do not automatically have free license to reproduce copyrighted work without attribution or compensation."

-- http://www.ehow.com/about_4793360_copyright-laws-fair-use-issues.html#ixzz1l8yCGug3

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Just because TM hasn't been prosecuted (yet...) doesn't mean you weren't legally in the wrong. Legal action is really expensive, so the recording industry usually prefers going after targets that are costing them so much that the hassle of litigation would be worthwhile. Like, for instance, people who sell pirated DVDs in Indonesia....

I'm not aware that truth is determined by majority rule. Maybe the reason "most" interns don't share the views of this site (though several hundred do) is that they have never researched spiritual abuse and the techniques of cults. (As you might have heard, it is a good habit to research things properly before forming opinions on them.) Or maybe they don't think TM is abusive, while at the same time they are posting verbally abusive comments to wounded people.

"So then tell me this: why, in all the years ...

2012-02-01T09:22:29.038-06:00

"So then tell me this: why, in all the years of making videos and putting on live events, have we never run into an issue about copyrights or usage??"
-They haven't got caught yet.
-The Christian music industry is in such a sad state that they probably consider it promotion from the amount of exposure gotten and weigh the pros and cons before pursuing action
-Maybe they have and you just don't know about it. Do you really think they would tell an intern or even an average staff member about any lawsuits previously brought?
-If TM plays music or veggie tale clips (as they used to) before an event, then they should get permission.

"Explain to me how your "years of experience in the industry" can argue with a lack of allegations against TM in this department?"
- I work for an entertainment law firm that specializes in infringement. My job is to assess all three points of view (defendent, plantiff,& interpretation that may result from a judge) & come up with arguments and at least 20 case citings for all three points of view. I have done this for over 10 years. My job is not to argue the "lack of allegations" against TM unless I get paid to do so. Honestly I don't care about the lack of allegations. (Not to sound mean its just not a relevant point for me.)

"Also, what, pray tell, is the difference between playing the Braveheart/Mohican/ANY song as a theme on campus as opposed to a bachelor's party, or a birthday party somewhere else? "
- The Mohicans etc...is a non-issue. However, have you ever noticed that when "Happy Birtday" is sung at a restaurant, it is always changed up? You can sing it in your house for free, but any establishment cannot sing it to you for free.

"What are the legal differences in that? Maybe I wasn't specific enough for you, but being at CCM, one of my jobs was to sit through every episode of ATF TV and write out a music cue sheet and get all our ducks lined up in a neat little row so we WOULDN'T get in trouble, so excuse me if I doubt your "experience", because, with all that, we were never legally in the wrong. Sometimes, if we weren't sure, we did a little research, we checked with a few people who DID know, and we dealt with it accordingly."
-Experienced addressed
-Law is about interpretation. It is not always black and white. Everything is arguable in court within reason.
-No one is always right. My firm just took on a very public figure who also thought they had their "ducks" in a row and it cost him millions.

"Again, this whole post really just seems like one big pissy party out to get Teen Mania because of your own personal vendettas, and it's starting to get old. ESPECIALLY when you start slandering perfectly good and decent people who have done nothing to deserve such treatment. Try talking to some of these "cultists" and see what they have to say about their time there. As I mentioned in another post, MOST interns, present and past, do not share the same views as you do, and there's a reason for that."
-I have no personal vendetta with TM. I had a mixed experiences like some people and was actually called "the TM poster child" by many interns. So don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Don't be so one sided because it will limit you and your knowledge.Life is about growing, evolving, and being able to understand diffrent points of view without knocking them. Real things happened and affected the lives of people...just because it did not happen to you, does not make it false.
-Also please look up the legal definition of slander.
My coffee break is over...gotta run.

Forever, Char: I'm not going to respond to yo...

2012-02-01T05:44:32.398-06:00

Forever, Char:

I'm not going to respond to your claim that members of the RA community haven't talked to past interns to get their experiences, because it appears you haven't spent a lot of time on the blog or the "true stories" tab. However, I will respond to your concerns about copyrighting.

Although I am no fan of ASCAP and RIAA, they own the licensing to the majority of published music. As you can see on their websites, you need permission to duplicate music. Although an artist (if they have the rights through their distribution contract) can grant free use of a recorded song, they do not have to. And simply "giving credit" is not enough.

***

ASCAP's FAQ: http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.aspx

"If you want to make copies of, or re-record an existing record, tape or CD, you will probably need the permission of both the music publisher and the record label. A music publisher owns the song (that is, the words and music) and a record company owns the "sound recording" (that is, what you hear... the artist singing, the musicians playing, the entire production).

If you plan to hire your own musicians and singers and create an original recording of a copyrighted song, then you need the permission of only the music publisher."

****

From the RIAA's website (http://www.riaa.com/aboutus.php?content_selector=licensing):

"Common Examples of When You Need a Voluntary License Include:

. . . Using a sound recording in a movie, commercial or other visual work. If you want to use a sound recording in a visual work, you need a synchronization license, so called because the music is "synched" to the video. You’ve already created your visual work and you want to put some music under it. You want just the music for your movie, commercial, documentary, sitcom, or any kind of audio/visual presentation, no matter where it is aired, even the Internet. Synchronization licenses are granted by individual sound recording copyright owners. "

****

Meanwhile, here is some information about using music in videos in schools, which applies to nonprofit organizations. (http://www.school-video-news.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=306:copyright-issues-when-using-music-in-videos&catid=33:copyright&Itemid=51)

And here you can find information about what defines fair use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) You will see that it DOES include nonprofits, but only in an educational context. And educational context is typically defined very conservatively.

****

There is a chance that TM was more careful when dealing with ATF TV because it was on television and would therefore cause them to lose a lot of money if they were caught. However, they have demonstrated for years that they don't care about copyrights by putting music that has not been licensed to them into promotional videos to be shown at ATF, training videos to be shown on campus, and videos that have been distributed extensively.

The reason you have not run into trouble is the same reason that many people have tons of pirated material on their computers but haven't been prosecuted: there is such a massive breech of copyright law that it isn't possible or feasible to track it all down and prosecute it.

So then tell me this: why, in all the years of mak...

2012-02-01T01:49:05.647-06:00

So then tell me this: why, in all the years of making videos and putting on live events, have we never run into an issue about copyrights or usage?? Explain to me how your "years of experience in the industry" can argue with a lack of allegations against TM in this department? Also, what, pray tell, is the difference between playing the Braveheart/Mohican/ANY song as a theme on campus as opposed to a bachelor's party, or a birthday party somewhere else? What are the legal differences in that? Maybe I wasn't specific enough for you, but being at CCM, one of my jobs was to sit through every episode of ATF TV and write out a music cue sheet and get all our ducks lined up in a neat little row so we WOULDN'T get in trouble, so excuse me if I doubt your "experience", because, with all that, we were never legally in the wrong. Sometimes, if we weren't sure, we did a little research, we checked with a few people who DID know, and we dealt with it accordingly. Again, this whole post really just seems like one big pissy party out to get Teen Mania because of your own personal vendettas, and it's starting to get old. ESPECIALLY when you start slandering perfectly good and decent people who have done nothing to deserve such treatment. Try talking to some of these "cultists" and see what they have to say about their time there. As I mentioned in another post, MOST interns, present and past, do not share the same views as you do, and there's a reason for that.

Cameron, I remember you as a great little kid who...

2012-02-01T00:51:52.394-06:00

Cameron,

I remember you as a great little kid who was eager to speak in public, had a great sense of humor and of himself, and you'd talk to just about anyone. Thank you for being bold enough to talk to us. You seem like you still have a great sense of humor and a good head on your shoulders.

I'm very sorry if you felt rebuked. I don't want to speak for RA, but I can promise you that was certainly not her intent. I don't think you will find a single person on this website who has anything against you. You're great. But I know that sometimes when you see your family getting hung out to dry, it becomes personal. It's not. It's understandable, but really, it's not personal. I know that doesn't make it better for you. I'm sorry you got caught in the crossfire.

2012-02-01T00:47:56.206-06:00

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Cameron, thanks for being brave and sharing your o...

2012-01-31T23:13:30.696-06:00

Cameron, thanks for being brave and sharing your opinion here :) I am an alum of Teen Mania and loved it! You're a good kid and have a great family. Your father is a great man of God!