Comments on My Teen Mania Experience: When Good Ministries Go Bad

I went on a mission trip in 1989 with Teen Mania. ...

2012-02-14T02:06:30.615-06:00

I went on a mission trip in 1989 with Teen Mania. Now I'm an atheist. This is one of the reasons.

Doug, You've nailed a big component of how so...

2012-01-11T23:34:34.431-06:00

Doug,

You've nailed a big component of how so many of these Christian groups get so successful. The parachurch organization circumvents the checks and balances that would have been present to guide a ministry under a denomination don't exist.

Lots of people and ministries have governing boards, but quite often, they're comprised of people who share the same perspective as the group, so they don't see the blind spots to start with. Or the nature of the relationship that people have with their boards doesn't give them liberty to say much, and as you point out, will they be heard?

I know others who take a magical thinking view of anything done by a ministry towards a virtuous end. Many people expect that God would not allow anything that bad to happen if the objective is a good one. I've met people like this on a governing board for a seminary (one that my husband and I left because of errors in doctrine and practice). People don't like to think ill of or to be too suspicious of religious efforts, and some seem to think that those who anticipate problems are pessimistic for malignant reasons. It's easier in those cases to just stay silent and hope for the best. So that's a significant pressure as well (all of that Cialdini commitment and consistency stuff). Everyone wants to be thought of as a nice guy.

I agree with Cindy about character being key. Ther...

2012-01-10T09:29:14.321-06:00

I agree with Cindy about character being key. There is also an issue of accountability. Since we all have the tendency to fall into sin, we have to be accountable to others. Who is Ron Luce accountable to? Who does he have in his life who can correct him when he falls into error? Who is there who can point out his blind spots to him, and be heard?

What you said here Cindy is right on. Many Christ...

2012-01-10T08:53:08.301-06:00

What you said here Cindy is right on. Many Christians feel that they cannot get caught in these traps and they are sadly mistaken. Our human nature tends to vear off into doing things in our own works, but the Lord continually tells us in His Word to leave our lives in His Hands. We tend to listen to others/ourselves instead of listening to the Holy Spirit. Pride is what puts us in very vulnerable situations and we start working in the flesh.
Thank you for your site.

Thank you for your kind words about my website. A...

2012-01-09T18:35:20.584-06:00

Thank you for your kind words about my website.

As Wendy Duncan states in her book by way of a chapter heading, "I never wanted to join a cult."

I don't think than any of these evangelicals who fall into the trappings of human nature that take on all the characteristics of LIfton's list of thought reform dynamics because of the pitfalls of being human started out to "form a cult." I tend to think of thought reform as what Paul's works of the flesh looks like when they are employed to do God's work without Him.

We all all paradoxically encumbered with the pressure to sin, even while we are being more and more conformed into Christ's image. And leadership presents a whole other set of temptations and trappings for us. Our personal errors just have more potential to effect more people. Character is critical.

I think that when we figure out some virtuous goal and then do anything to accomplish that end (letting the end justify the means), it's like we take our destination of bringing glory to God, we take the keys out of God's hands, and then we put Him in the back seat of our plans to take God where we think He ought to "take" us. But it is what we do in our flesh.

Anon- that is epic. Thank you.

2012-01-06T00:40:30.917-06:00

Anon- that is epic. Thank you.

A therapist friend of mine once told me "reli...

2012-01-04T18:40:26.613-06:00

A therapist friend of mine once told me "religious organizations are a breeding ground for psychopaths". Particularly Narcissistic Personality Disorder is common among a lot of very visionary, charismatic believers.

I agree with Doug. It's not to say that Ron o...

2012-01-04T17:33:05.425-06:00

I agree with Doug.

It's not to say that Ron or Dave or Heath etc. don't have any, or never had good intentions. But good intentions/a lack of maliciousness do not a good leader make. Many narcicistic people have such a strong belief system that THEY have the (God-given) power to change the world, etc. and get clouded by their vision of the "greater good".

I also believe that "good intentions" and "pure motives" are not the same thing, but it's very easy to assume/believe/think that a leader with good intentions has a pure motive for the ministry. And how they conduct themselves in the face of criticism, is a pretty good indicator of the purity of those motives. Do they respond in love and grace and honesty? Or do they accuse and divide and tell hal-truths/lies?

I guess for me, I no longer ponder how TM became what it is. I think the callousness of TM leadership speaks for itself. If God is Love, but they don't preach Love, what "good" spiritual leaders could they be?

We had a lot of discussions among the former membe...

2012-01-03T15:30:35.148-06:00

We had a lot of discussions among the former members of my cult regarding whether or not the leader was good at first and then corrupted by the power, or if he was off at the beginning. In Greek tragedies, the protagonist's downfall is always an inevitable result of a character flaw. I am in the school of thought that says that Ron's narcissism was inevitably going to pull anything he did in a bad direction.

RedRidingHood - Writing has definitely been a cath...

2012-01-03T12:41:55.415-06:00

RedRidingHood - Writing has definitely been a cathartic and healing experience for me. I've always been a journaler. I hope you have the same experience!

One piece of advice, you might consider a different domain name. "Gossip" has a pretty negative connotation...just a thought.

RA - Great post. I've been reading your blog...

2012-01-03T12:19:03.704-06:00

RA -

Great post. I've been reading your blog for the past few months and I have to say that you are 100% right on. At TM I was abused spiritually and as a result I now struggle to fit the mold they made for me.

Since you received so much healing through writing, I was also considering starting a blog to help me cope with my challenges. My husband recommended buying a domain and then setting up a basic BlogSpot site on it. So far I think TeenManiaGossipDOTcom would be my choice. I think they are hundreds of past interns who we're hurt by TM and need a place to vent their abuses.

Anyways, thanks for all your inspiration. I look forward to having you guest post sometime in the near future.

Kaitlynn aka RedRidingHood03

Excellent post, thank you. I believe this is an im...

2012-01-02T13:48:24.230-06:00

Excellent post, thank you. I believe this is an important point to explore.

This is exactly it. I'm definitely of the opin...

2012-01-02T12:38:31.145-06:00

This is exactly it. I'm definitely of the opinion that Ron and Dave started out with great, genuine intentions. I still think they are sincere in believing they are helping young people to "change the world for Christ". That's why my Dad was so incredulous watching MOM and talking about my experience. He said he really "though Ron Luce was the real deal".

I'm also trying to make sense of the fact that just like Ron, my Dad said that 10 of the 12 pastors he has been in ministry with have come from abusive backgrounds. Think of other big names like Mark Driscoll. I am not trying to pass judgment or say "this is why they are the way they are" or that everyone from abusive backgrounds turns out this way, but it's too much to be coincidence. As if their past still keeps them from full accepting or giving grace, and they are still trying to gain the approval of their father through performance/strict rules....

I don't have a degree in psychology so I'll stop my musings for now.

Thanks for the post. It sits right with my heart. ...

2012-01-02T11:37:19.774-06:00

Thanks for the post. It sits right with my heart.
I've been thinking a lot lately about what a jacked up terrible person I was to people after Teen Mania. The ones I love I expected to just take what I dished. Not realizing the consequences for my horrific attitude would most definitely lead to the ending of many good friendships.
Even today I thought this.
I realize I messed up BIG time. The pain that is there is real. But my only two options truly are to protect myself and deny that I made a major error or put on my big girl panties and admit I was wrong. It's not Dave's fault, it's not Ron's fault. I believed their asinine idea's, for that I am highly regretful.
Live and learn I guess...
Thank you RA for everything you're doing.

‘Plotting covetousness and deliberate contrivance,...

2012-01-02T08:09:04.506-06:00

‘Plotting covetousness and deliberate contrivance, in order to compass a selfish end, are nowhere abundant but in the world of the dramatist: they demand too intense a mental action for many of our fellow-parishioners to be guilty of them. It is easy enough to spoil the lives of our neighbours without taking so much trouble; we can do it by lazy acquiescence and lazy omission, by trivial falsities for which we hardly know a reason, by small frauds neutralized by small extravagances, by maladroit flatteries, and clumsily improvised insinuations. We live from hand to mouth, most of us, with a small family of immediate desires; we do little else than snatch a morsel to satisfy the hungry brood, rarely thinking of seed-corn or the next year’s crop.’ From George Eliot’s Mill on the Floss