Comments on My Teen Mania Experience: Sophie's Story: Global Expeditions Review

yes, please end it. I do wish to clarify a few thi...

2012-02-08T10:31:21.881-06:00

yes, please end it. I do wish to clarify a few things as well. I am not what many consider a charismatic Christian. I don't speak in tongues and I was raised in a very conservative Baptist church from a small town. When I said "thousands of miracles and many of them physical healing" I should have clarified that by many of them physical healing I have probably seen a few dozen people who were physically healed (in a big way) and the rest were instances where God came through in situations which cannot be easily explained away. In the end I believe the one thing that matters is that God is glorified and people end up in heaven.
Batman

Ok, well I think we've beaten this topic to de...

2012-02-07T23:05:17.720-06:00

Ok, well I think we've beaten this topic to death...so I'm calling a cease-fire.

Feel free to comment on the original post but I'm ending the side discussion on healing.

Regardless of whether Jesus spoke audibly or Batma...

2012-02-07T22:51:00.503-06:00

Regardless of whether Jesus spoke audibly or Batman had a psychotic episode, or if aliens appeared, or whatever, I'm not going to assume that Batman is lying. I and others in my family have witnessed miracles and call it what you want to, the result was that people no longer were in pain, people were able to do things they weren't previously able to do, and God got the glory. I have seen God answer prayers like this even after no longer being a member of a charismatic/evangelical church and after being aware of what happens/ed at Teen Mania. And no, I do not have tangible proof in the form of doctor's reports.

I can see why Batman feels attacked, and people who feel attacked usually react defensively. Perhaps Batman's experience did make him a kinder person than they were previously, I don't think a couple of blog comments are enough to judge, especially since we don't know what they were like before.

We ALL need to be careful to treat each other with respect, regardless of which "side" the other person is on.

That said, I also agree that Doug has very good reason to be cautious of believing these sort of things and his hesitance/caution is not a sign of lack of faith, or mocking of the Savior or anything of the sort. Doug has a very good heart and has been a gigantic help to a lot of us. Also, Batman needs to remember that people in the RA community have usually been VERY VERY badly hurt by their involvement with TMM and when you've been hurt by a ministry/person/people, it's really really hard to not react strongly when people negate your emotions and experiences and/or come to the place that is a big part of your healing process and then defend and extol those who hurt you. I think this is a good time to point out that if pro-TM people don't want to be accused of lying, they need to recognize that we don't want to be accused of it anymore. There's a saying that "What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

BTW, I am an RA-er who does not support TMM/HA/GE.

The issue, from my perspective, is that the belief...

2012-02-07T22:01:38.427-06:00

The issue, from my perspective, is that the belief in constant and ubiquitous supernaturalism makes people easier to manipulate. People end up going to the HA because they have an adrenaline fueled experience at an ATF event and assume that it is the Holy Spirit. Then, they manipulate their own emotions and decide that “God is leading them” to attend the HA. All of this is confirmed every step of the way by stories of supernatural healings and interventions, most—if not all—of which are dubious.
As to the possibility of miracles, contra Julie, I do not say “no proof is sufficient.” I am open to the evidence, it’s just that nobody has ever come up with any good evidence that I have seen that a miracle actually occurred. If you or Batman really have some, feel free to produce it.

I don’t believe you are outright lying, but I work...

2012-02-07T18:36:53.394-06:00

I don’t believe you are outright lying, but I work in a field where I talk to people nearly every day who either see or hear things that are not really there. Maybe Jesus appeared to you and healed your neck. Maybe you had a psychotic episode. Ironically, you are the one person who would be least able to say for certain which it was.
I absolutely am not mocking the works of Christ. I am in favor of the works of Christ—especially things like loving your enemies, forgiving those who wrong you, and being a servant to the poor and needy in your life. You keep putting words in my mouth and ascribing to me attitudes that I do not have.
I do have to say that your credibility goes down a little when you say that you have witnessed “thousands” of miracles. If miracles of the type you are describing truly do happen (and they might), I am pretty sure they are not very common.
Part of what is not helpful here is all of the Godbabble. When you say things like “God is God” what is the purpose of that? Do you think I am somehow saying, “God is Elvis?” What do you think you are clearing up when you say things like that? Certainly, there are people who love God. Do you think I am saying there are not?

Its funny you say, "more inclined". Do y...

2012-02-07T17:41:13.304-06:00

Its funny you say, "more inclined". Do you really believe I'm outright lying to you? I'm sorry you don't like my fruit, but a lot of people didn't like Jesus's fruit either. Look, you don't know me either. You have no idea how kind or rude I am. You yourself are pretty venomous to people you think are leading others astray as well. So, please, see it from my point of view: here is a guy who says he has a professional opinion mocking the works of my Savior and claiming I would lie about what personally happened to me. I have personally been there to witness and be a part of thousands of miracles and many of them were physical healing. None of these were performed on a stage or with my name in lights, in fact all of them were performed in dirty streets, huts and third world hospitals. No one knew my name and no one saw me do a fancy dance and scream Christianese. I was never paid for one of them. Most of all, I can say I am a normal, even below normal, person who isn't a stellar preacher or floating, holy man but I am a sinner saved by grace. Look, Doug, I know you've seen a lot of phonies out there doing God's work for profit, but they have been around since Jesus's Resurrection and they always will be. This does not negate the fact that God is still God, and there are still people who love Him.
Batman

Anonymous- why so hostile? Does Doug not have rea...

2012-02-07T17:19:13.535-06:00

Anonymous- why so hostile? Does Doug not have reason to be hesitant because of all the false claims of healings? The Bible tells us to be good Bereans and look through Scripture to see if whatever we see or hear is of truth. Paul commended these men for doing so.
I for one do believe in miracles and know that Christ is very involved with His children and does heal, so maybe you are one of them, praise the Lord! But Christ does the healing on His own terms, NOT ours. And many of the "miracles" today are done by tricksters and ones who are out for their own gain...money talks. This is why Doug is so skeptical and don't blame him for being so.
Why would you treat him with disrespect? He is on this site to help those who have gone through REAL pain and abuse and there are REAL men and women who are doing things that are NOT godly. This is what this site is for- for those who NEED A VOICE.

It has always seemed to me that for people who bel...

2012-02-07T17:10:37.159-06:00

It has always seemed to me that for people who believe God does miracles, no proof is necessary; for people who don't believe God does miracles, no proof is sufficient. I'm aware of a couple people who have had medically documented miraculous healings. But instead of people being convinced by the evidence, they say things like, "Maybe the initial test results were contaminated or mixed up. Maybe the initial diagnosis was wrong. Maybe the doctors were looking at someone else's x-rays the first time." And there will never be any way the person can disprove any of that, since we cannot go back in time. I understand why Batman feels a little attacked, because he is sharing a very personal experience that made him feel close to God. No one should attempt to take that away from him. If you don't believe he received a miraculous healing, that's perfectly fine, you can remain skeptical.

Doug, just as you assert Batman doesn't know you from Adam, you do not know his heart or who he is or what tone he intended in his comments. Let's all have a little grace for one another here.

I would be more inclined to believe a miracle had ...

2012-02-07T16:24:22.503-06:00

I would be more inclined to believe a miracle had happened to you if it would have done something to make you a kinder person. You do not know me from Adam, and yet here you are trying go all Jeremiah on me. Jesus said we would know the true followers of His by their fruit. This fruit I see coming from you is not appealing.

You will indefinitely remain skeptical of it, and ...

2012-02-07T13:37:17.741-06:00

You will indefinitely remain skeptical of it, and there is nothing I can do about it. I pray that one day God will reveal Himself to you. He is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. He is the God of the living (not the dead). He never changes, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. God will forever be the God of miracles and He doesn't have to prove Himself to you. He supports the humble but brings the proud down into the dust. God didn't heal me from some magic words I used or to show off. He didn't heal me because I was so spiritual (I was not a nice boy) or my faith was so big. He didn't do it in front of a crowd or in front of you. My own knowledge didn't save me, and yours will only deceive you. God is God and He will remain God whether you believe what He said or not.
Batman

People who know me know that I am not bitter. You ...

2012-02-07T13:10:18.606-06:00

People who know me know that I am not bitter. You have just borne false witness against me, and this is why I remain skeptical about your story.

The truth is it did happen, and yes x-rays, cat sc...

2012-02-07T12:13:16.401-06:00

The truth is it did happen, and yes x-rays, cat scans and medical doctors confirmed it. The reason a "good" doctor would not promote this as a miracle is because doctors are frowned down upon for promoting such things (I guess you could say its the "medical cult"). Like James Randi and yourself, many doctors have decided there is no such thing as miracles and refuse to be persuaded. Maybe my blog was not for you to hear, as you cannot, but God may have used it as a "tendentious" story for others. By the way I have shared my story with many people and no, I will not reveal myself on this site as I would not promote this site to others. If you would like to know who I am, perhaps I can visit your site and email you some time. But I am guessing that would be a waste of time, as your mind is set and your bitterness holds you in bondage.
Batman

@Batman, First of all, I never said you, or anyon...

2012-02-07T10:00:09.472-06:00

@Batman,

First of all, I never said you, or anyone else, is “stupid.” All I said was that I am skeptical that this sort of thing really happens. When someone has seen as much fraud, deception, and abuse in the name of religion as I have seen, their skepticism comes easily to them.

Second, on what basis do you say that James Randi is not a person of his word? You say you absolutely do not believe he would pay, but why do you believe that? Because he is not a Christian? In my experience, ethical humanists like Randi are far MORE trustworthy than “Christians”—especially those of the charismatic variety.

Third, if this really happened to you why don’t you go to the doctors and have them verify what happened, and then publish something about it? Moreover, Batman, if God really did this, wouldn’t he want people to know about it so they could believe in miracles? Why keep yourself anonymous? Surely God had a higher purpose in this than to give you ammunition for a tendentious blog entry.

Doug, this is the "anonymous" who is so ...

2012-02-06T23:27:25.722-06:00

Doug, this is the "anonymous" who is so stupid they actually believe God healed them physically during a TM trip. I'm sorry it has taken me so long to reply, but I don't make it a habit to stop by this page. One thing I do believe in is that God can and does miraculously heal people and one thing I absolutely do not believe is that James Randi would ever pay anyone a dime who brought him tangible proof.
I was 15 when I broke my neck. The tendons along my top vertebrae were severed on one side and stretched beyond natural or medical healing on the other. Any bump or accident would not have left me paralyzed from that point on, but dead. I was supposed to be wearing a neck brace until the time of my surgery, in which at least my top two vertebras were to be fused together. Like any good teenage boy who didn’t want to look goofy, I hid my neck brace in my closet and told my mom it was in my bag.
A long story short, in Miami my neck had experienced some trauma and was inflamed in size and in tremendous pain. I tried to hide my pain because I refused to go home. The second night there I could take it no longer, so on the way back to the dorms, I took a detour and hid by myself in a field of palm trees.
All alone, at night, on a dark college campus in a place far from home I started to cry and simply said, “Jesus, please help me.” I looked up to see the shadow of a man walking up behind me. I was petrified and thought if I held still he might not know I was there, but he stood beside the tree behind me. I stood up to face this person who may be some crazy person out at night or a leader ready to send me home for being alone. When I stood and turned around there was no one there. This caused even greater fear to rise up within me. Then, suddenly, a strong hand grabbed the back of my neck. I wanted to scream, I wanted to tell them my neck was hurt and I would die, but I was too scared. I then heard these words, which were not only audible but penetrated deep into my soul, “You are my son.” At that moment I have never felt anything better in my entire life. It was like a waterfall of goodness pored over my entire body. It felt like my neck had been in pain for eternity, and then the pain was completely gone. I was there in the field alone again. I didn’t know what to think, I just ran back to my dorm.
Today I am a professional science teacher who would never believe in any hokey pokey, voodoo healing mumbo-jumbo. So this and the many other miraculous healings I’ve witnessed over the years (free of charge and endorsements) must be illusions. You may call me Batman.
PS: I never got the surgery and I haven’t had a problem with my neck at any point in these 16 years.

I will never again believe that any one of us (hum...

2012-01-27T15:04:19.867-06:00

I will never again believe that any one of us (humans) is "right on". Back in the day and during my TM life, I did believe that if people claimed to be Christian and believed certain things, they could be trusted to "have it together".

As I've gotten older and begun to come to terms with the truth about TM and so many other people who have walked through my life, I believe that none of us are perfect and I can't trust someone simply because I agree with them on what I've decided to be theological must-haves (or must-nots).

I believe in miracles. And I have no problem with Doug commenting on his scepticism with miracles. More to the point, I think the heart of what is being said here is that TM teaches young people to believe in "magic", in a vending machine creator who wants everyone to be happy and healthy so if we don't get our miracles we're personally doing sometihng wrong. Sinning against God, not having enough faith. Etc. That is ultimately what TM teaches and it will inevitably lead to spiritual frustration for the young people who believe it.

I really like that Doug used the word "tribalistic". I think it is a keen way to describe what goes on in Garden Valley. I think I have mentioned elsewhere on this site, but I was extremely frightened during the "Unreached People Group LTE/Tribal Retreat". I was trapped in a mob of kids running wild, sacrificing a rubber babydoll to a fire pit and physically abusing those who "got in their way".

My experience with TM was tribalistic, both inside and out of the Tribal retreat. It was the tribal culture that kept people in, as lifers, loyal to the tribe.

This is a funny one from anon. We go to doctors th...

2012-01-27T08:51:39.020-06:00

This is a funny one from anon.
We go to doctors that may or may not be Christian.
We go to movies that are not Christian.
We buy things from businesses that are not Christian.
We will real soon, more then likely, vote for a President that may not line up with us theologically.

I may or may not agree with Doug theologically, but his credentials on the aspects of cults and abusive churches is credible.

Esther makes a good point here. It is hypocritical...

2012-01-27T08:20:51.911-06:00

Esther makes a good point here. It is hypocritical for someone posting anonymously to be demanding more transparency from someone else. Still, I don't have anything to hide. I am a member in good standing of a mainstream Protestant denomination. I am a Christian, but I do not consider myself to be a Fundamentalist. Having said that, I don't want to debate theology--there is already too much of that here. I just think that the emphasis at TM on magic represents a very primitive sort of religion--almost tribalistic. That is more of an anthropological opinion than a theological one.

So then, why don't you go by what you're s...

2012-01-26T16:35:14.272-06:00

So then, why don't you go by what you're suggesting. Tell us your name, your profession, and your personal theological, doctrinal, and spiritual beliefs? That way, we can judge your credentials in commenting and decide whether you're someone we can trust.

"But you're right, I wouldn't trust a...

2012-01-26T16:22:55.204-06:00

"But you're right, I wouldn't trust a mechanic that couldn't demonstrate that he knew what he was talking about."

Which is valid. But would you ask the mechanic to provide a statement of faith and beliefs? If said mechanic told you they are an atheist, would you then re-consider taking your car to him/her because they have differing theological views? See, I don't get it.

As far as Doug's professional opinion is conce...

2012-01-26T14:51:36.983-06:00

As far as Doug's professional opinion is concerned, a statement of faith has ZERO bearing on that. The fact that you ask makes it look like you will only listen to people that agree with your particular set of Christian beliefs. (Not saying that you are doing that, just that its what it looks like.)

With regard to his spiritual opinions, he is as free as anyone else to state them here. Why not ask every single person who comments for their statement of faith?

And why do you need a statement of faith to decide if you will trust someone? Why not look at their arguments and decide for yourself if what they assert is truthful? That is a better, more logical way of arriving at the truth - instead of just trusting those who are "in" and opposing those who are "out."

But you're right, I wouldn't trust a mecha...

2012-01-26T14:41:54.396-06:00

But you're right, I wouldn't trust a mechanic that couldn't demonstrate that he knew what he was talking about.

I'm not saying that I don't trust Doug. I ...

2012-01-26T14:41:05.715-06:00

I'm not saying that I don't trust Doug. I would just like to get a better picture of where he's coming from.

He should be more than willing to provide a statement of faith and beliefs.

No, actually, thats not what you are saying. You a...

2012-01-26T14:09:23.587-06:00

No, actually, thats not what you are saying. You are saying you wouldn't trust a mechanic unless they gave you a statement of faith.

Not to mention that Doug is offering his professio...

2012-01-26T14:09:17.103-06:00

Not to mention that Doug is offering his professional AND spiritual opinions here. (See references to magic, etc)

Um, yep. that's exactly what I'm saying. Y...

2012-01-26T14:08:10.513-06:00

Um, yep. that's exactly what I'm saying. You can't be two people. Who you are professionally is a product of who you are personally, and the inverse is true as well.

We see it everywhere in the news, and especially with the upcoming presidential election. Who wants a president that can't pay his own bills? or who wants one that doesn't donate a significant amount to charity?

these are all things that matter across the board.

You wouldn't hire a mechanic who doesn't know what a piston is, would you?